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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:15 am 
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Sea Wolf

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Please submit unfinished battles for adjudication


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 8:00 am 
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this is my last tourney game vs Nblawat - i think i will win having 1.5 vs 1 numerrical superiority but this could take a month more since he is lagging like hell barely sending turns within 3 day limit.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:13 am 
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Sea Wolf

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keeping within the time limit isn't lagging, some of my games i've barely kept within the 3 day limit

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 11:53 am 
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Sea Wolf
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I have to agree with Mrakobes on this one. My only game still going is with El Diablo. For at least the last 3 turns he has waited until there was less then 1 hour before he timed out to take his turn. The ones before that he would take most of the time also. I have tried to get mulitple turns going at once, by messaging him and by taking my turn within 15 minutes of getting his...no luck. In a tournament where there is a 4 week limit to a game, I do not think this should be acceptable. If we both took 3 days per turn we would barely be on turn 4 or 5. And on Noble Rust that is barely enough to get started.

Just my thoughts.

Here is my replay with El Diablo.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:02 pm 
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Sea Wolf

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so u saying we need say a 2 day time limit? as why say 3 days if u don't let ppl take 3 days?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:22 pm 
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i do understand that some people can be busy but sending turn around 1 hour before time limit expiration looks very much like intentionally delaying the outcome - that's what nblawat was doing.
and - 2 Chriscraven - i myself now even not take El Diablo seriously this is a player who just dont want to play - it was proven in clanwar i had a game with him where he moved once per 8-10 days.
and yes i would say that 2 days limit best fit for clanwar


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 12:56 pm 
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No. I think the problem is setting a hard limit. If you set the limit at 3 days, it says it is ok to take 3 days everytime, and I don't think that is ok. Like my example showed, if both players do this, then what is the point of playing the game. I think there needs to be some sort of flexible limit(yes I know this would be extremely hard to do from the moderators side). Just as an example... Say start with 2 day limit, each time you take a turn under the 2 day limit you are allowed to take a turn under 3 day limit. This turn does not have to be the next turn, but can be any turn in the game.

The point is that only taking a turn once every 3 days in a 4 week tournament round causes a problem and there needs to be something done about it. I don't want to see people excluded from a tournament because of a 1 hour turn limit, like some people would like to see ;).

It is just etremely irritating getting that tournament game once every 3 days when you see the person on everyday.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:20 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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I agree, I had many games like that. In fact, 15 minutes before the turns expired in two consecutive turns I received emails that the other player was taking a turn and to please wait.

The problem is that there is a disincentive for players to take their turns fast. If you don't like your setup or don't think you can win then stall and hope the game is called a tie or you get a slight lead.

My solution would be to eliminate the turn limit for tourney games and only set the end time. Why would this help? Well, tiebreakers should be whoever took the longest between turns loses. I took almost every tourney turn within hours of receipt in this tourney, but waited a full three days for at least half my games. Those games that did not end should be called in my favor since I tried to get to game completion.

4 weeks is enough time to finish games on any map even if a player misses a few days here and there. We need to incentivise quick play to make tourney play more enjoyable.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:00 pm 
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i see reason in what SIlicor saying but technically it would be very difficult to do because if both players make turns in approximately same speed then it will be impossible to define who is the tiebreaker.
and setting "flexible" limits was already discussed dozens of time and found technically impossbile because all lagger players think that if they can send turn in X days one time then they are allowed to do it each time.That's what was in clanwar - they were told that 3 days is good time limit but replacement will be don after 1 week - they began to send turns once in 6 days...
so...i personally belive that 1 day limit is okay for those player who in same time zone and make it 2 days because we all in different time zones...3 days limit is allowed because we can go outside for holydays (sunday and saturday) so if you send turn in friday evening you can send next in monday...so it;s ok to make 3 day pause sometimes but the laggers understand it like they can do it every time.
However - i doubt we will ever see limit less than 3 days because moderators are slow players themselves...
I think that if game not finished within month moderators should give victory to one who was sending turns faster...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:12 pm 
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Mrakobes wrote:
i doubt we will ever see limit less than 3 days because moderators are slow players themselves...

You said yourself that 3 days would sometimes be necessary (for weekends and such), so the ONLY way the limit can EVER go lower is to make it flexible, thus increasing the moderators' work load a hundred times over. Personally, I do NOT like the prospect of watching turn lags for 4+ hours per day, and would rather quit as a moderator than put myself through that again.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:17 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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The idea here is that no games should go to a tiebraker and if two players do happen to exceed the timelimit and the time between turns was say less than 20% difference, you could always do tiebreakers as they are done now. If 4 weeks is too short a time to reasonably end a game, then make it 5 weeks. I just want to see people not delay turns because they feel it is to their benefit.

I don't know the database design, but since we currently know the last time a turn was sent. It appears that turns are time stamped. It seems like a relativey easy calculation to keep a running total of how much time each person spent between turns.

As in all things, people will behave in a manner that is to their advantage and currently the rules give incentives for slow play.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:26 pm 
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I think turn limits on Clan War and Tournaments are 2 different things. Both just as important but both need to be treated sperately.

I know the length of the Clan War is variable based on how well teams do, but is there any estimated length expected in a war?

Obviously for any of the flexible turn systems to work there would need to be some sort of tracking system. We can't expect someone to watch this and record this. But would it not be possible for turns to be tracked in a database? Wouldn't it be simple to have a database setup that would be populated everytime a game is submitted? If not, we could create a database off an email. Everytime you take a turn in a clanwar or tournament game you submit an email with info about the game. Then a database keeps this info up to date and then Moderaters can monitor this once a day or once a week, and send words of encouragement to players.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:37 pm 
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clan wars is another can of worms for sure. I'm waiting to see how it works in beta, but I'm concerned. With the current rules, it seems like a good tactic is to attack an enemy planet with a cheap army and cut its production in half even if you don't think you can win. Just delay 3 days between every turn and you can hold up one planet for 3 or 4 weeks easy. Its not just the planet production that is cut, but the armies that are there are stuck. so hit a planet that has a few armies with one cheap army and delay, delay, delay. Is every planet going to be tied up? will it turn into a big stalemate? It remains to be seen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:55 pm 
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I just had a cool idea for tourneys, but it is a bit technically challenging and would require developer intervention to make it work, but I'll throw it up here for giggles

The idea is that each person gets a pool of time that is their downtime to manage. If they use their pool of time and the game is not over they lose. For example, you give each player 10 days worth of downtime in a match. Every time their opponent sends a turn it starts counting down. Lets say I have 10 days in my pool and my opponet sends a turn. I don't play a weekend because of other priorities so my pool goes down to 8 days.

A game could only take as long as both pools so for a 4 week tourney you would give each player 14 days worth of downtime. Everygame would end within the 4 weeks(28 days) by either the game ending or one of the players not taking turns fast enough. No reminders needed, no abjucation of games needed... Tracking is the only hard part. Even if it can't be hard coded it seems like all the data is there to create a report on the tournament page and admins could end games where a player exceeded their time.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:59 pm 
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a sort of this "time pool" idea was talked about like a year ago...
however the developers found it difficult to make and they thought it is not really requested my majority of players


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:45 pm 
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Mrakobes wrote:
i doubt we will ever see limit less than 3 days because moderators are slow players themselves...


I don't know which moderator(s) you are referring to - but I would not consider Tiger to be slow - and all my games were finished over a week ago.

Mrakobes wrote:
a sort of this "time pool" idea was talked about like a year ago...
however the developers found it difficult to make and they thought it is not really requested my majority of players


This "chess clock" idea has been suggested before - but discussions of it have been going on a lot more recently than a year ago - I have been asking Tiger to try and get the devs to implement it with each tournament I run - it is the only sensible way of doing it (time limits) I think. Each player gets say 350 hours to play the game - and once thats over they lose automatically.

There is possibly an advantage for someone in the right time zone (relative to their opponent) or who can't play at weekends - but I think this is the best "hard" rule that can be come up with.

The next tournament I am planning will have the following time limit rule:

10. All battles will be set up with seven day turn limits. This limit is hard and no exceptions will be granted. NOTE: It is NOT expected that players will take longer than two days on average to play their turns. Players are encouraged to keep in touch (by sending message in MAN) with their opponent and inform him/her if they know they will not be able to play for a few days. At the sole discretion of the moderators, players can be thrown out of the tournament for continuous slow play.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:02 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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mwigor, I think your approach at handling this is as good as we can do till there is some sort of time pool approach implemented. I prefer a hard limit of 7 days rather than checking the forums or getting last minute pleas for more time. An average of two days leaves some wiggle room for a long weekend, but sets the expectation that people take their turns regularly.

Tiger and devs, please consider implementing the time pool suggestion... It would prevent tons of arguing, reduce moderator requirements and increase the fun of MAN.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:17 pm 
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oh no! 7 day limit is crazy...such a tournament will be just one big laaag...i am sure i will not join such a tourney...and from other side - what's a "continuous slow play"? is it а turn in 6 days?5 days? 4 days? what if some one sends turn in 2 day then in 4 then in 2 etc...i think you Mvigor yourself will have difficutlies judging all specific cases....

i think that for tournament it's ok to have 3 day no-noncence limit (no-noncence means that moderators cant tell players to not finish,player can ask opponent directly to wait but he is not obliged to.)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:05 pm 
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have to agree with rmakobes, the 3 day hard limit is really the only way to run a tourney with the current ways we can manage time limits atm. It dones't work for the clanw ar but the tourney should be a set limit, if u have comp problems tough, u can appeal to your opponents but it's upto them. If u have to go on hols for a week, don't play in the tourney. there's a tounrey eery month or so, so there'll be plenty more.

Like I said this won;t work for the clanwars as they lost abit longer than the tourneys (or the 1st 1 did)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:19 pm 
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or the possibility could be given to every player to delay the game one or two times for every stage of tournament.


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