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 Post subject: new timer mode for tournament
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:32 pm 
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I would like to suggest a new timeout system for tournament.

As an intro, I'm trying to address the following problem, as I felt it a lot in my own tournament games.

Player A lives in California, plays all his turns at 7PM Los Angeles time, every day. Player B lives on the east coast of the US. He plays all his turns at 7pm New York time everyday.

The way the chess clocks works, if they play a game with 14 days total time, player A will always plays his turns about 3 hours after player B submit his turn, and player B plays his turns about 21 hours after player A submit his turn.

What sucks here, is player B will run his clock out after 16 turns, even though he played everyday. Noticing this, player A, even if he his in a losing game, can try to stretch it, because B will run out of time and lose anyway.

So, my proposal is a "tournament" timer, where we want to know when all the games will be over, without having the lame timeout win.

You decide three things about the game:
- how long should the game last
- how long is tolerated between turns
- what slack time each player has

For example, let's say we want the game to finish after 28 days, at most, players have 24 hours to submit their turn, and 7 days of slack time.

With those setup, player A and B above could play until the 28 days are over. As long as they keep the game moving, nobody runs out of time.

But, if player A goes away for a weekend and takes 72 hours to play turn 4, 48 hours (72-24) is deducted from his slack time. If a player runs out of slack time, he loses.

The tricky part is the 28 days. If the game is not finished after 28 days, a winner is declared as follow:

If one player has more than 25% advantage, he gets the points, if neither player has a 25% advantage, it's a draw.

It makes it hard to use timeouts to your advantage and allows people with outside lives to manage their time better.

What do you guys think?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:48 am 
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I think the two existing timers should be combined. So the chess clock timer doesn't start to count until your per turn time has expired. This gives you all the same options you have now plus more.

For tournaments, you could then have a 1 day per turn + 7 day chess clock. Any games not finished by the set end date could be finished as a draw by the tournament software. That bit doesn't need to be built into the game.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Nice simplification. I like it.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:13 am 
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I like it - it brings the draw back into the game, personally with the current system I am ok - but a lot of my opponets were timed out. (I probably play too much :)..

Anyway - I never accept draws anymore - mainly because they usually cost me points - and if a lower ranked player can drag out a game for 21 turns - then good on him - he deserves some points. (Thats for the small to medium maps) Obviously the larger maps should get more time (and more turns).

PLUS - If I hold out for 21 turns agains Pitor or AGhepu then I want some points :)


The only problem I see is that when 2 evenly matched people are in a pitch battle for supremacy and BAMM timeout - draw..... that would be a shame.....


You have to remember - this is only a trial tournament and I am sure the developers will do some tweaks here and there to make the game and tournaments more fun for everyone.

There is even talk of a round - robin style tournament - where everyone playes everyone..... But I imagine that would take about a year to finish :)


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:06 am 
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I would like to offer developers the following essentially new scheme of carrying out of tournament without a mode of a chess clock.
Advantage of this system:
1. The player does not have necessity constantly to play and "care" that it " time expires "
2. Necessity and an opportunity "to delay" time of a course is excluded and to use cunning:), doing a course after the contender
3. Эта системы игры привлечет намного больше игроков в турнир а не с трудом набранных 100 человек для текущего турнира.

Not the secret for example, that such player as storm440 was removed from tournament up to its beginning. There are tens more or hundreds players which do not accept a mode of a chess clock.
Essence of my offer:
Originally games in groups are created with a limit of a course 3 days. For example, if in pair players one - active, and another is not present, the full turn of a course will be a maximum for 3,5 days.
During game are established 2 - 3 control stages. If 6 full courses of a party are not completed less than for 21 day the limit of a course decreases till 2 days.
If 10 full courses of a party are not completed less than for 32-33 days the limit of a course decreases till 2 days.
At such rules more delayed games in any case to be tightened on time of the ending up to active and will end approximately during one time.
The basic argument :) for a chess limit of time was that games had identical end on time. The system offered by me removes this argument:)
For the programmer to make a floating (changing) limit of time for a course completely not difficultly.
The given scheme of tournament will have certainly longer term of carrying out (for example not 3, and 4-5 months), but it will suit hundreds players which do not love a chess mode of time. And eventually, somebody somewhere hastens? On mine interest to game of the greatest quantity of people and a variety of players is more important. Otherwise tournaments with a chess clock can turn to tournaments of same several tens players:)

I have described only provisional scheme of tournament and it can be finished, but it already details.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:23 am 
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Shadow_D wrote:
I would like to offer developers the following essentially new scheme of carrying out of tournament without a mode of a chess clock.
Advantage of this system:
1. The player does not have necessity constantly to play and "care" that it " time expires "
2. Necessity and an opportunity "to delay" time of a course is excluded and to use cunning:), doing a course after the contender
3. Эта системы игры привлечет намного больше игроков в турнир а не с трудом набранных 100 человек для текущего турнира.

Not the secret for example, that such player as storm440 was removed from tournament up to its beginning. There are tens more or hundreds players which do not accept a mode of a chess clock.
Essence of my offer:
Originally games in groups are created with a limit of a course 3 days. For example, if in pair players one - active, and another is not present, the full turn of a course will be a maximum for 3,5 days.
During game are established 2 - 3 control stages. If 6 full courses of a party are not completed less than for 21 day the limit of a course decreases till 2 days.
If 10 full courses of a party are not completed less than for 32-33 days the limit of a course decreases till 2 days.
At such rules more delayed games in any case to be tightened on time of the ending up to active and will end approximately during one time.
The basic argument :) for a chess limit of time was that games had identical end on time. The system offered by me removes this argument:)
For the programmer to make a floating (changing) limit of time for a course completely not difficultly.
The given scheme of tournament will have certainly longer term of carrying out (for example not 3, and 4-5 months), but it will suit hundreds players which do not love a chess mode of time. And eventually, somebody somewhere hastens? On mine interest to game of the greatest quantity of people and a variety of players is more important. Otherwise tournaments with a chess clock can turn to tournaments of same several tens players:)

I have described only provisional scheme of tournament and it can be finished, but it already details.


As I've said, in the nearest future players will get access to the tournament manager and you can create own tournament with own rules. I'll be glad if your tournament will have more players, then current first tournament, which one was started in the summer month.

Только просьба не придумывать количество участников. Для участия в первом турнире удалось довольно легко и быстро набрать не 100, а 139 игроков.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:54 pm 
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Thanks for comments are dear the Tiger:) but I hardly can organize tournament as for me MAN2 it is game for rest and fascinating entertainment and I do not apply for the organizer. I have only stated idea of the organization of more mass, in my opinion, tournament.

А количество участников я не придумываю, а я их даже завысил:) Нормальных "не триальных" игроков даже было по моему меньше 100. А "Мертвые души", некоторые из которых даже хода не сделали вряд ли можно назвать полноценными участниками - так... для массовки:)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:30 am 
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I apologize for some mistakes in the previous text:)
I wish to add still, that the system of tournament offered by me at all does not exclude tournament with a limit of a chess clock:). They can be crossed in time. Active players, in my opinion, will have time to play everywhere:), and others will choose. Even the alternative will be


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:19 pm 
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Just to be accurate, I withdrew from the turnament before it started. My main reason was that i felt i would have a problem playing the number of turns required in the time allowed. I had never played a chess clock type game and i actually had the wrong idea that a 2 week clock ment that there would be 2 weeks to play the game and that whoever was ahead % wise would win if the game was not concluded in that 2 week period. Now that i know how the clock really works it makes the situation for someone like me even worse and here is why. Let us say that i make a move in the morning before i leave for work. If my opponent returns the move right away my clock ticks down at least 8 hours before i am back home. Now, (by my own choice), i have a wife :wink: and this means that when i get home i can not usually just jump back on the computer and spend all evening playing the game. But let us say that i do play all of my moves again and send them off. If my opponent now makes the return move and i do not play it again, because perhaps my children would like a little of my time, or because i have gone to bed, another 8 hours ticks off. With this system, if i am playing someone that plays very quickly and spends a lot of time playing, unless i can win outright, i would almost always have my clock run out before their's. Probably the first round would go well, but once you are playing the very skilled players it is doubtfull that most games will end quickly, which gives the advantage to the player that can spend more time playing. Not exactly the best system but unfortunatly, i have no idea how to make it better.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:46 am 
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storm440 wrote:
Just to be accurate, I withdrew from the turnament before it started. My main reason was that i felt i would have a problem playing the number of turns required in the time allowed.


Approximately for the same reason I too have left tournament after 1 stage.
I am grateful Storm440. Though someone has maintained me in my ideas.
I cannot understand at all why developers and organizers or completely ignore my remarks, or answer with brief refusal.
It is completely obvious, that the mode of a chess clock at all does not approach people at which there are families, there is a work which a lot of time demands.
For example, if to leave on target to have a rest, you lose at least 6-9 days of time. And after that it is possible to not play any more because you will have time to make the greatest 8-10 courses in game.
When such games 1-2 it is not critical, but when in tournament of 10 games with strong contenders it it is necessary to play and to be late adequately in time.
I have looked history of tournaments in MAN1. There there were many tournaments under such scheme as I have described in a forum (with a limit on a course 3 days)
I do not understand, why developers completely refuse this scheme. Carrying out of tournament without a chess clock much more would increase quantity of the interested participants.

I too have the wife and absolutely soon I shall become the father:) to That it is certainly very glad. And such system of game with a limit of a chess clock at all does not approach for me. I think, that many will agree with me.
Really it is impossible to arrange tournament under the scheme which I has described a little above in this section of a forum?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:10 am 
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I thought I would be ok with the chess clock - how hard would it be I thougnht.

Then the first round came - and I kept up ok (2 players never even made a turn - so that was good). I played every morning and every night. By the 3rd week all my games had finished and all was good.

Then came the 2nd round - I was confronted with people - who - like myself - play twice a day - No matter what I did I had games piling up - always 4 or 6 turns I had to make - or let my time keep on ticking. The pressure to play morning, noon and night was tremendous - let me tell you - playing people like Pitor under this much pressure is 'lots of fun'.

While I still managed to go to work for 10 hours a day - I have completley neglected the my wife, my freinds and the house (which looks like a bomb has hit it).

I have managed to get ahead of the ticking chess clock agains most players and am now comfortable in the knowledge that time will not beat me - but at what cost.

I had to give up the game for 3 months because my wife got sick and tired of competing with the computer for time - now - while she supports me in re-joining the comunity - I don't think it is fair to keep going the way I am. If I happen to make it to the next round (not looking good anyway) then I think the next round will be it for a while for me.

I know that this was just a trial run to see how a tournament would work - and I have to say - I think it has been a sucess - so well done to Tiger and the team. I hope that we take what we have learned and make it even better - so that ALL the best players (even those with wives) can enjoy the next tournament.

An easy fix to make it a bit more bearable - would be to at least make it a 4 week chess clock - that way if you play once a day then you will get at least 28 turn (if your opppent make his moves staight away) and up to 56 turns if he also only plays once a day. (12 hours appart).

I would have no problems then with time management and could enjoy all aspects of my life equally.

Even better - as has been mentioned NUMEROUS times in the past - the first 24 hours after a turn should be FREE so that there is no disadvantage for people on different parts of the globe.

I know this means that each round could last a week or 2 extra while a very close game is being played to the finish - but if the game is that close - then surely we want to know who is the real winner - AND - personally - I don't mind waiting - If it takes another week - so what - just play non tournament games if you are waiting.

Anyway - getting sore hands now from too much typing

If you are still reading - thanks for putting up with my ranting

IMHO this is still the best game EVER

RAVERMEISTER


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:30 am 
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Shadow_D wrote:
I have looked history of tournaments in MAN1. There there were many tournaments under such scheme as I have described in a forum (with a limit on a course 3 days)
I do not understand, why developers completely refuse this scheme. Carrying out of tournament without a chess clock much more would increase quantity of the interested participants.


I've replied you many times by e-mail and on the forum why limit without chess clock is bad idea for tournament.
Many players, including very good, very often send their turn in the last moment.
For example, if in the game with 2 weeks of chess-time player could do one turn in day and have 14 turns after 2 weeks (it's extremely case when opponent send turn immediately, but player can't send one more turn at the same day). Almost all games could be completed in the less number of turns (we don’t count that map is New Paradise or Sea Switzerland).
If we have 3 days limit, then player will do 14 turns during 42 days, if his opponent will reply with the same speed, it’s 84 days – almost 3 month for the single round. Are many players ready wait of end such battle? Don’t forget that main part of games will be finished during 2-3 weeks.
One more problem, some players send their turns in the game with 3 days-limit during fourth day. Are you ready to press finish button manually (games with this limit haven’t auto finish)?
You can see old topic of forum about time-out etiquette. De-facto, we should use just small or very small maps and round will have more then 1,5 month length if moderator will check replay of each unfinished battle and select winner.

Yes, all old tournaments in the first MA and MAN were played without chess-time, but it was because of there was not such option in the previous version of MA/MAN. All moderators of these tournaments (I was just on of them) asked add chess-time limit as soon as possible, because of many problems with organisation tournaments with classical time-limit.

And I could repeat you again and again, if you have idea to do better tournament – do it. I’ll hear your ideas, but I’ll do official tournaments as I count it will be interesting for main part of players.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:44 am 
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Tiger, i was not being critical of the turnament, just pointing out how it can be a problem "time wise" for some--i am sure that there are many other besides me or ravermister that have to juggle time just to play the non turny games. As for my self, i think a 3 week clock would have been a lot more appealing than reducing the map size to small or extra small.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:04 am 
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storm440 wrote:
Tiger, i was not being critical of the turnament, just pointing out how it can be a problem "time wise" for some--i am sure that there are many other besides me or ravermister that have to juggle time just to play the non turny games. As for my self, i think a 3 week clock would have been a lot more appealing than reducing the map size to small or extra small.


I've thought about 3 weeks limit for large maps too. And of course, for XL maps should be used limit 4 weeks.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:19 am 
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Another thought, why not reduce the % needed for victory? Leave it at 100 for round 1 lower it to 60 or 70 for round 2 and to 50% for the final. This way a player would be much less likely to jump out in "time" and hold out for victory--while loseing the game. And, unless someone is reincarnated as the 2nd comming of Erwin Rommel, there is no one that i know that is playing now that can come bace from being down %50 to any of the top players.

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