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| Draws http://www.massiveassaultnetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3341 |
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| Author: | storm440 [ Sat May 06, 2006 4:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Draws |
I think i may have asked this question before but i don't think anyone responded. It seems that players can lose points and rank because a game is drawn, reguardless of the reason for the draw. Can anyone explane to me how it is fair to penalize a player if their game breaks and has to be drawn? If this is really the case, the system needs to be changed before it comes out of beta. |
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| Author: | Guest [ Sat May 06, 2006 8:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
What about games that could go on forever? Maybe a way out of this situation...after a certain number of turns , a player could send replay or something to give judgement and make sure no one scores with a draw. The above question by Storm should be answered, and the draw needs to be a "No Points" result. Okay? Or, if not, then there should be more than one kind of Draw. 
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| Author: | Placid [ Sat May 06, 2006 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I agree that draws need to be completely neutral, no points gained or lost. 99% of draws are due to problems in the game or mutual agreements to end it, not an actual equal result in the game (which might imply points won/lost if players are different ranks). |
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| Author: | Morn [ Sun May 07, 2006 1:38 am ] |
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I agree too. There should be an option to void a game. Even so it could be counted as draw in the statistics. But it shouldn't influence the score at all. Of course both players must agree to that like it is realized with the draw option now. I'm an optimistic person but I'm realist too. I don't think that all bugs will be fixed in beta phase  . It would be a possibility to end a game very fast and "unbureaucratic" rather than bothering support every time to do that.
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| Author: | Tiger [ Sun May 07, 2006 3:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I've added voting about draw: http://massiveassault.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3346 |
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| Author: | Nick_WN [ Mon May 08, 2006 10:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hello, I think we won't count score for draw games ended on the 0 or 1st turn in release version - because players may just dislike initial settings and going to create another game. As for the system, it works based on GLiko rating. So if you and your opponent are of almost the same rank, the penalty(award) is minimal. Actually, I see no reason for stronger player to finish game in draw. But in case he agrees - the score will be re-calculated for both players. |
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| Author: | storm440 [ Mon May 08, 2006 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Nick, I think you miss the main points. First, some games still seem to break, I have had 1 against the AI that could not be played around turn 10. Since it was my first game, perhaps there was not any penality but were i to play a AI game now and have it break and have to be drawn there would be a substaintial penality. How can this be fair? Second, Since both players have to agree to the draw why should either get a benefit or penality from their mutual decision to end the game. There may be many reasons for the 2 players to end the game with a "no decision" and why should it matter to anyone what these reasons are as long as they are agreeable to both players. Third, the last time i looked, in the poll Tiger started the players were picking the point neutral choice almost exclusively. Is not the beta phase to somewhat taylor the game to what most players want? Forth, There must be a reason that you do not want the draw to be neutral, can you give it to us? Thanks for your response. |
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| Author: | Captain X [ Wed May 10, 2006 4:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I can understand very well the point of giving points for a draw. It honors, if the player with the lower rank can play for a tie in the game. even if he cant win, he achieved more than he expected against a hard oppenent. And it should be implemented into the glicko system. If you have such a complex and realistic way to calculate the points, it should of course include tied-up games!! Unfortunately, it seems that 95% of the draw-games, aren't tied up, but broken or something else!! In this case it makes things worse, instead of more interesting. Another question is, wether it makes the game more or less fun, if people in the late game try to play for a tie, as soon they recognize they can't win anymore... those games are more likely to go on very long and might become boring. So if the devs want to give points for a draw against a higher ranked opponent, please implement a broken-function, which both players have to accept too, so the guy with the higher rank doesnt get frustrated by broken games. |
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| Author: | Morn [ Wed May 10, 2006 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
That's the point. I would like to see an option to void a game. It shouldn't matter why. It could be broken or both players aren't interested in playing the game to end or whatever. Of course voided games should be added to the statistics too. And of course both players must agree to void a game. Please built-in such an option in addition to a draw. |
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| Author: | Rextrent [ Tue May 16, 2006 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Why isn't a draw considered just what it says it is. Maybe you should consider it a "void", but will this really be necessary? If someone wants to surrender, fine, then points will be gained. What use is a draw if points will be gained/lost (rank is affected?). How many categories are necessary? Won't DRAW and SURRENDER be enough? What happens if players chase each other around Inferno and no one wants to quit?
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| Author: | Morn [ Wed May 17, 2006 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Yes, I've voted for the option that players don't get/loose points when finishing a game in a draw, too. It's the easiest way. But I can understand Captain X and Brewer (from the voting thread): [quote="Captain X"]I can understand very well the point of giving points for a draw. It honors, if the player with the lower rank can play for a tie in the game. even if he cant win, he achieved more than he expected against a hard oppenent. And it should be implemented into the glicko system. If you have such a complex and realistic way to calculate the points, it should of course include tied-up games!![/quote] [quote="Brewer"]If I play a stronger player to a draw, I'd consider that a success and I should get points. Same applies if I allow a weaker player to get me to a draw.[/quote] |
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| Author: | ravermeister [ Wed May 17, 2006 6:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Rextrent: A good chase around inferno is not so bad (look at the fun we are having at the moment Rextrent..... That game will could take ages to finish. Then again - if you offered a draw I would probably accept - even tho I would lose a few point. Back to the actual discussion regarding draws..... It must be noted that you don't lose as many points for a draw as you would for a loss. Just enough to remind you that you should have beaten your "weaker" opponent.
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| Author: | Rextrent [ Wed May 17, 2006 7:50 am ] |
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Yes, Herr Ravermeister....It has been a real epic for me....I've only recently experienced games that really get started several turns down the line...with large maps anything is possible, including hundreds of turns! I would like a clarification regarding the points given/lost. When rank is affected by the game's outcome, does it "take points" from a player who is higher ranked?(Is that the basic effect?) If I do get into a situation where neither player wants to "give in" with a potential for Cold War...I want an opportunity to DRAW!....  Without loss of points...The fact is, my rank is not as important to me as something ridiculous as a Forever War(For me ridiculous). But I would rather not just throw it out the window carelessly.
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