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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:55 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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Evil is Real, and Stalin's Life Manifested it to an Extreme Degree

Look, I don't know what kind of history books you're reading over there, but any denial of the proposition "Stalin was a very evil person" is utterly indefensible.

Understand that when I say "Stalin was a very evil person," I am not saying that he was 100% evil - granted, even the most evil people do some good. I am simply saying that his life was characterized a multitude of heinous, evil deeds, which far outshined the good he did. (And yes, I believe that good and evil are real, and morality is more than mere pragmatic "effectiveness." You do too, and if you've fooled yourself into thinking otherwise, then I have a question for you...).

Stalin Not So Bad Given the Circumstances?

I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the rise and fall of Stalin's dictatorship. (I have a history degree, and have studied Russian history in detail as an undergrad.) Indeed, he was not the only one to ever murder his political opponents in large numbers, but that fact in no way excuses such extreme evil acts. And, of course, he killed many more in his purges than others! Again, not to mention deportations, torture, etc.

In addition, the millions killed by his collectivisation policies must be taken into account whenever any economic benefits are considered. The millions who died as a result from his policies are a far more serious consideration, and the evil clearly outweighs the good. The state needs to protect human life more than it needs economic growth. Unlike some other politicians/leaders who are responsible for deaths by overseeing just death penalties upon murderers in court, engaging in just wars, etc., Stalin's purges were malicious and obviously unjust, and his collectivisation policies displayed a gross lack of concern for human life. So, no, all politicians are not evil like Stalin simply because they make decisions which result in the loss of human life. Even poor leaders today who have caused many unjust deaths do not compare to Stalin, as he unjustly caused the deaths of far more.

Argumentum Ad Populum?

By the way, the reason I mentioned that "most people" think it obvious that Stalin was very evil is because this is just standard, common sense, basic history knowledge to most who go through public education in the west and read any sort of broad textbook on history in the 20th century. Of course the fact that "most people" think something doesn't necessarily make it correct, but if you are in the less than 1% of the world's population who deny that Stalin was evil, you ought to at least think very carefully about your position and its implications.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:01 pm 
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Supreme Marshal
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Placid wrote:
In addition, the millions killed by his collectivisation policies must be taken into account whenever any economic benefits are considered. The millions who died as a result from his policies are a far more serious consideration, and the evil clearly outweighs the good. The state needs to protect human life more than it needs economic growth. Unlike some other politicians/leaders who are responsible for deaths by overseeing just death penalties upon murderers in court, engaging in just wars, etc., Stalin's purges were malicious and obviously unjust, and his collectivisation policies displayed a gross lack of concern for human life. So, no, all politicians are not evil like Stalin simply because they make decisions which result in the loss of human life. Even poor leaders today who have caused many unjust deaths do not compare to Stalin, as he unjustly caused the deaths of far more.


I didn't want to continue this disussion and there is good phrase that "history don't like conjunctive mood", but I want to say just one counter-evidence:
Old Russia was agrarian country without large farms. In country was not serious solvent demand in tractors, automobiles etc. During WWI in Russia was not produced any tank, just some tens bombers and other planes mainly with foreign engine. There were not own trucks. The weapon for infantry: rifles, machine guns, field guns and ammunition were serious problems.
After WWI, Revolution and Civil war during ten years our country just come back to level which one was before war. It was end of 1920s and it was just 10 years before WWII. The was serious polemics about way of development in that period and way of slow development by using objective economical tendencies had many followers, but...
Just try to imagine Soviet Union meets WWII without heavy industry (it can't be fast created without enough number of free working hands from villages, but individual peasant had enough food for their family and small trading. He don't want to leave village or purchase expensive machines).
How USSR could stop Hitler's army without mass modern weapons?
How many people were killed by new world order of Nazi?
For example, general plan "Ost" provided destruction in territory of the USSR and Poland 120-140 millions of people. Jews and Gipsies should be total destroy. 75% of people in Belarus should be destroy.
Some reasons Himler about the manipulation with local population of east areas: "For not the German population of east areas should not be the higher schools. Presence of four-class national school suffices for him. The purpose of training at this national school should be only: the simple account, the biggest up to 500, skill to undersign, suggestion, that a divine precept consists in obeying Germans, to be fair, diligent and obedient. To read I think skill unnecessary".
Could agrarian USSR to prevent it?
It's terrible dilemma and I don't know had we other ways.
My grandmothers and grand-dads were from small villages. I remember that my grandmother said about feeling during collectivization. Of course, her family was not happy to leave their cow, but I live, have higher education and can write it because of not German soldiers entered in Moscow in the 1941, but Russian soldiers entered in Berlin in the 1945.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:51 pm 
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Mrakobes and such:
Sounds like a case of Moral Relativism....If you can't figure out what is Good or Bad....you might be a product of shabby upbringing....not your fault...but you can change and knowing that, it becomes your responsibility....no longer "off the hook"....
What were Stalin's values?
Do you think they were about other peoples' welfare? Probably only concerned with what worked for STALIN .....SO he indulged in paranoic mass-murder, mass-torture, wrongful imprisonment......
We're talking millions of INNOCENTS.....and by God....!.....their slaughter....DID NOT DO ONE POSITIVE THING FOR Soviet State....holy sht.....get off the pink freaking cloud.....come down to this hard MFing earth. Armchair historian with only the secular view of life....woe :x
This is healthy communication, right? God Bless.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:27 pm 
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Sea Wolf
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Placid wrote:
Evil is Real, and Stalin's Life Manifested it to an Extreme Degree

Look, I don't know what kind of history books you're reading over there, but any denial of the proposition "Stalin was a very evil person" is utterly indefensible.

Understand that when I say "Stalin was a very evil person," I am not saying that he was 100% evil - granted, even the most evil people do some good. I am simply saying that his life was characterized a multitude of heinous, evil deeds, which far outshined the good he did. (And yes, I believe that good and evil are real, and morality is more than mere pragmatic "effectiveness." You do too, and if you've fooled yourself into thinking otherwise, then I have a question for you...).

Stalin Not So Bad Given the Circumstances?

I am aware of the circumstances surrounding the rise and fall of Stalin's dictatorship. (I have a history degree, and have studied Russian history in detail as an undergrad.) Indeed, he was not the only one to ever murder his political opponents in large numbers, but that fact in no way excuses such extreme evil acts. And, of course, he killed many more in his purges than others! Again, not to mention deportations, torture, etc.

In addition, the millions killed by his collectivisation policies must be taken into account whenever any economic benefits are considered. The millions who died as a result from his policies are a far more serious consideration, and the evil clearly outweighs the good. The state needs to protect human life more than it needs economic growth. Unlike some other politicians/leaders who are responsible for deaths by overseeing just death penalties upon murderers in court, engaging in just wars, etc., Stalin's purges were malicious and obviously unjust, and his collectivisation policies displayed a gross lack of concern for human life. So, no, all politicians are not evil like Stalin simply because they make decisions which result in the loss of human life. Even poor leaders today who have caused many unjust deaths do not compare to Stalin, as he unjustly caused the deaths of far more.

Argumentum Ad Populum?

By the way, the reason I mentioned that "most people" think it obvious that Stalin was very evil is because this is just standard, common sense, basic history knowledge to most who go through public education in the west and read any sort of broad textbook on history in the 20th century. Of course the fact that "most people" think something doesn't necessarily make it correct, but if you are in the less than 1% of the world's population who deny that Stalin was evil, you ought to at least think very carefully about your position and its implications.
Seems that someone dont recognize the phisiological problem of dictatorships in Europe.
The dictators were a product of that age in Europe....as well as the actual economic s power of this age...(maybe someone lives too far to understand the situation).
Is anyone really sure that Stalin's purges made more death than hunger in the world right now?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:30 pm 
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testing....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:53 pm 
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Sea Wolf

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one, two, :roll: three


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:28 am 
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guderian27 wrote:
Seems that someone dont recognize the phisiological problem of dictatorships in Europe.
The dictators were a product of that age in Europe....as well as the actual economic s power of this age...(maybe someone lives too far to understand the situation).
Is anyone really sure that Stalin's purges made more death than hunger in the world right now?


Good remark. De-facto, after WWII such terrible mass repressions didn't repeat in the USSR. As I said people psychologically changed during the war. They better understood values of peace and human's live, they were more free than at the any moment in history before it and had new self-respect.
When Stalin died new leaders of the USSR were people, which one took part in the repressions too, but they start serious changing of all system and mass rehabilitation.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 9:02 am 
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Sea Wolf

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Pretty wild....There are some who would defend Saddam Hussein for whatever he has done as dictator...."Could it have been any other way?"..."Look at the situation there".....and "It's the fault of the English and French and those other capitalist pigs"....
Maybe if you were on the receiving end of the years of:
wrongful imprisonment,
slave labor,
all kinds of torture....
...or if these things happened to someone IN YOUR FAMILY....
you might not be so comfortable in your smug hindsight....
Well, maybe Stalin did reduce the population , improving chances for those in the future....oh, I get it!!! must be Stalin's great-grandson!
"Ol' granddad could do no wrong." HA! "At least I can eat well....Screw those peasants and intellectuals...!!....Bring 'em on!!.....Stack the bodies over there!....Bring that girl here to me, she looks quite tasty....."
Freedoms to express almost any thought were not won by the senseless slaughter committed by Stalin or Hitler or Saddam Hussein.
Thousands of European descendents set down their freedoms on the beaches of Normandy and along the Italian Peninsula to destroy the menace....and give us this freedom.
Please don't make excuses for the behavior of evil , self-serving
scum .....from the comfort of your own existence....it is a dangerous precedent.... we are all in this together....
There are decent and good people the world over....the living conditions make a difference, but goodness is not just an aberation or for the weak.... bullies deserve to change or die....
Understand values.....respect some of the best of our traditions....give mind to the "why" of traditional thought....don't swallow what any certain person gives you....be honest....know that you have much power, although that may seem illusory....use your power for good.....thought for the well-being of others.....it's a worth-while goal.....
Game On! Rock and Roll!
Merry Christmas! Don't let the bedbugs bite!


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:35 pm 
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It's very interesting for me, from where landing allied troops to Normandy or Italy if tens German Panzer divisions in the 1941 or 1942 moved from the Caucasus to Iran and Middle East and broke oil supply of Great Britain?
How long Great Britain could continue Battle in Atlantic if all continental Europe work not for increasing production of land weapons (mainly for Eastern Front), but for air and sea blockade of Great Britain?
Who could destroy 2/3 of German airplanes which ones were destroyed during WWII by Soviet pilots on Eastern front?
What's happen with almost 50.000 German tanks, Sturmgeshutz and Jagdpanzer destroyed on Eastern Front during WWII?
What's happen with people in Eastern Europe until US troops help them, if just civil population of the USSR during 3 years of war lost about 15 millions?

P.S. I don't want to say that we don't know about role of Great Britain and USA in the victory over Nazi.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:16 pm 
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Yes sir....The Russian people deserve much credit, if not praise for the great sacrifice....there is no doubt in my mind about it.
My comments are intended to keep things in an honest perspective, give credit or blame where due, and stay on the right track. Of course , sometimes it is "fun" to get a little mouthy....and try to remain civil and not mean.
Yes, most of what we see as history is just people trying to survive and people with power using it for....good effect or bad....Often it is combination of both...There are very few people in history or alive that I would find it appropriate to call "evil".....but there are certain examples which should remain as lessons.....I pray that we are aware of the past: the horrible mistakes and examples of human cruelty as well as those symbols of goodness, selflessness, compassion....
We do well (especially myself) to reexamine ourselves....honestly, call a spade a spade, be able to criticize and laugh at our own selves....
Often it is I who needs to change....or learn.
It is a pleasure to communicate openly....a great blessing in light of this freedom.
God bless....Wouldn't it be interesting to have a MAN convention and meet the Usernames in person?....ha :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:17 pm 
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Remember that Stalin was quick to join in the spoils when the war began, making a treaty to carve up Poland. Under his leadership, the Soviets were allied with Germany up until Hitler decided to focus on Russia as its next target after failing to destroy Britain as quick as he thought he could. Stalin seemed to still think that the alliance with Germany would continue, even as many signs showed the buildup of German forces on their frontiers.

What it comes down to, though, the leadership plays in both Germany and Russia were on a very high level by totaltarian leaders and their parties. Those are the main people to blame for whatever happened in their respective countries that was morally unjust, as ultimately the policies and procedures were laid out by them.

All peoples definately have things they should regret, but when millions of people die without a rational just cause in such circumstances, it is very hard for me to find justification in idolizing them.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:44 pm 
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Maelstrom wrote:
Remember that Stalin was quick to join in the spoils when the war began, making a treaty to carve up Poland.

Do you know about "alliance" between Poland and Germany during splitting of Czechoslovakia?
Do you remember about defensive agreement between France, USSR and Czechoslovakia which one was broken in Munich by western leaders?
Did you hear about trying of USSR establish new defensive coalition with France and Great Britain against Hitler's Germany in the summer of 1939?
Pact with Germany was established only after losing of hope to create this coalition.
We could just thought how can change history, if this coalition was declared (perhaps, it could stop war and help anti-fascists in Germany).

Maelstrom wrote:
All peoples definately have things they should regret, but when millions of people die without a rational just cause in such circumstances, it is very hard for me to find justification in idolizing them.

I never try to create idol from Stalin and I know his mistakes and crimes, but I try to be objective.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:53 pm 
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There is not justification about Totalitarism...

Id like to know your opinion about:

1)Execution of Marshall Tukacevski (1937) & the most part of the Red Army military elite. (seems that the evidences of his treason were just given by Germans)

2)The reason of the very slow reaction of the Red Army during the German attack (operation Barbarossa).
Did Stalin really trust on Ribbentropp-Molotov pact?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:54 pm 
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There is not justification about Totalitarism...

Id like to know your opinion about:

1)Execution of Marshall Tukacevski (1937) & the most part of the Red Army military elite. (seems that the evidences of his treason were just given by Germans)

2)The reason of the very slow reaction of the Red Army during the German attack (operation Barbarossa).
Did Stalin really trust on Ribbentropp-Molotov pact?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:01 pm 
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guderian27 wrote:
There is not justification about Totalitarism...

Id like to know your opinion about:

1)Execution of Marshall Tukacevski (1937) & the most part of the Red Army military elite. (seems that the evidences of his treason were just given by Germans)

It's very intricate figure:
Tukhacevsky - officer of old Russian Army, which one joined to Red Army and had very fast carrier during Civil War.
During war between Soviet Russia and Poland in the 1920 he did serious mistakes.
Later he command of troops during suppression bloody rebellion of peasants in Tambov's area. He used gas-shell for it (!).
At the end of 1920's and until 1937 he was one of officials in the military department (he control equipment). From one side he take part in creation of the first rocket project, large tank formation etc, but at the same time thousands of tanks, which one were produced under his control was not effective in real war and his tank formation had not good communications facilities, hadn't enough trucks and tractors, hadn't enough artillery and infantry, so it couldn't be really effective weapon.
I heard that Abver (German intelligence) "to help" in repressions against Red Army military elite, although, of course, without accept from Stalin it was impossible. Some of generals and higher of offecers (about 1/3 from arrested) were rehabilitated before or at the beginning of war and command large formation of Red Army. For example, Rokossovsky - commander of corps, army, front. He was commander of the Parade of Victory on Red Square in the 1945, but many were killed. It's difficult to say how they could command in the WWII, not all of them were ready for new type war.

guderian27 wrote:
2)The reason of the very slow reaction of the Red Army during the German attack (operation Barbarossa).
Did Stalin really trust on Ribbentropp-Molotov pact?

There are some main reasons:
- Army was not ready for new type start of war - Blitzkrieg, without long fighting on the border (the main part from about 200 German divisions were in the first attack echelon and could destroy divisions and corps of Red Army in parts).
- There were not good communications facilities.
- There wasn't battle experience.
- Many formation didn't get new weapons and old ones had exhaustion of resources for using etc.

Stalin didn't trust on Ribbentropp-Molotov pact, but this pact give small chance to delay war. Any actions, which one could be used as casus belli were prohibited, but at the same time new formation was moved to Western regions from center of country, increased production of new weapons (T-34, KV, Il-2, new fighters and bombers etc.). If USSR could delay start of war some more weeks, Hitler could postpone invasion (because of his army wasn't ready for war at the autumn and winter).
One more argument against war in the 1941 - it was war with two fronts, because of war against Great Britain was not finished and to start new war in this situation could be stupidly.
In the 1942 Soviet Union could have another Red Army...

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 Post subject: Re: KURSK: 5 July 1943
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:53 pm 
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testing.... 8)
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