The Issue with Real-Time Disclosures

I talked with Artmax online today about an issue that has been brought up before: MAN 2 currently allows players to watch the disclosure phase "uncensored," i.e. showing all undos and rewinds, etc. just like the other phases.

The problem is that a careful player must decide 100% for sure which country he wants to disclose before taking any action in this phase, because if an opponent is watching (or suddenly begins to watch during disclosure phase) and it turns out that it would be better to disclose a different SA, two ugly choices remain: (1) Give away the current SA's position and disclose a different one (2) Avoid giving away more information and go ahead with the first disclosure even though it isn't the best move.

Proposed Solution with New Option

Artmax suggested adding an option in the settings in a future version of MAN 2, which players could check once, and it would cause all the disclosure phases in all their games to be "protected" - all phases can still be watched in real time, except the disclosure phase only appears (all at once) after it has been completely finished and the turn is sent. The default would still be that opponents could watch the disclosure phase in real time, but for those who want to experiment in their disclosure phases with the tools available to them (undo, rewind, etc.) to maximize their strategy, an option is available.

Artmax also suggested I start a poll, so here it is - there's the motion on the floor. Yes or no to this option idea? Or do we need to amend the motion to consider some other solution?

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My Thoughts

As for myself, this is the best solution I've heard proposed thus far. Watching others players' turns is an interesting new feature, but I don't want it to compromise MAN's gameplay by making it unsafe to experiment with various disclosures before ultimately deciding. Part of the beauty of MAN is that players are given tools like undo and rewind to keep all the focus on the strategy, not mechanics. Without a way to protect players from having their disclosure phase "spied upon" (remember, even if you're not currently being watched, that eye can appear at any time!), there is an additional burden of doing a bunch of mechanics in your head (or just playing a more strategically loose game if you don't feel like it...).

Bottom line: Being able to undo and rewind is a good thing in the disclosure phase and a new option would allow for these features to be used without risk.

Additional Ramble on Revealing Information in Other Phases

It occurs to me that watching the other phases might also reveal potential information concerning SA positions. For example, the placement of a transport on a neutral border in recruitment phase might hint that the bordering country is actually a SA. So even if the player decides to reveal another SA or change the transport in recruitment phase, information could still be given. I think the key difference here is that this is only potential or probable information. Actually, a player who sees his opponent watching may well "bluff" by placing and removing a unit to represent a certain SA that he doesn't actually have! So "probable" or "potential" info from other phases isn't the same as when an opponent knows for certain that you really have a SA because you thought about disclosing it and then changed your mind.

Still, maybe there could be another option that prevents players from watching any of your turns, as in MAN. I like the new feature of watching games and giving others that same option most of the time, but it seems reasonable to have the ability to "go dark" completely if you're making a really tough decision and need to experiment in ways that might reveal crucial info. But I guess I'll leave that for another discussion. [Edit: There already *is* this option, it is called "offline mode." However, it would be nice to be able to change from online mode to offline mode in the middle of a turn if so desired. Currently it seems it can only be done before starting a turn.)

I agree with almost everything you said except for this. I think the benefits of having the online mode far outweigh the disadvantages. If you can watch your opponent in action, you can plan your turns in advance, and therefore you don't need to catch up on what's going on and remember the dynamics of this game before you play a turn, like you had to in MAN.

Its definately a different style, and IMO a better one. I think that if you play online with someone, you're less likely to make mistakes because you have the whole picture continually before you.

Of course another way to play MA is to continually try new things, rewinding to the beginning constantly until you have an optimal turn. This mode has its place as well, but I don't think there needs to be an option for it. If you only like to play this way, then send challenges to people offline.

I don't think that we should have an option to do this, as I think its better for the game in general to encourage the online play mode.

This topic seems to me opportune for dealing some arguments that regard :
currently 1) The opening phase, and in a broad sense, the whole "thinking phase" in MAN2 and, more in a generalized manner, 2) the possibility to avoid in absolute that the opponent or "some opponents" knows in advance the other player's SA before the beginning of the game.

Shortly...
sub 1) I think, not only that the suggested option would have to be added, but more...either the initial disclosure phase but also the successive ones would always have to be hidden by the players....This due to obvious reasons, as for example, guardian the global strategy of each player in every single game.
Each player would have to be able to see only the REAL & Definitive action of the other, never about what he has in mind to do, included the experiment of disclosure etc.
Target should be to save the strategy factor which is the peculiar MAN (2)character so such it must remain, under my point of view....

sub 2) Sometimes happened to me to play some game in which, from the beginning, I had the impression that my opponent "magically" knew the whole position of my SA so that he could organize better its game and therefore win easy....
At first I ve thought that it was just an impression...however talking with other players i knew that they have had my same feeling too...Some more
...various topic in the forum brought back similar considerations...
Moral
I HOPE this is just a mistake...even if, as someone said, with computer all it is possible

Maelstrom,

You make a fair point: there is an offline mode, where turns cannot be watched at all.

Perhaps another solution would be to make it possible to change from online to offline mode in the middle of a turn. This way, players can generally enjoy the benefits of online mode, but if there is a need to do some experimenting with units that might reveal vital information (in whatever phase), one can simply "go dark" as long as necessary. What do you think?

However, even if this were implemented, I would still like Artmax's option as a way to automatically go dark for every disclosure phase without having to mess with online/offline settings every time, and without disruption to the flow of watching consecutive turns back and forth.

Currently, the best way to play for optimal strategy is offline. I'd just like to have something in place so that online play could be the norm for careful players who want to play their best.

Yes. I like this idea.

You could even use it to mess with your opponent! Suppose you are trying to work out a tricky long distance transfer/invasion, you could turn it off to prevent them watching, or move a chopper then go dark for a while, while they stew about what clever trick you are working on.

Now you can write message to opponent by using Enter and ask him leave your game.